History
The Baling talks
Session 3
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History
The Baling talks Session 3 |
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THIRD DAY Tunku Abdul Rahman. Just now, we ended by saying that we would not recognise the Malayan Communist Party. That point has been made clear. Is there anything else? Chin Peng. I want to raise a few questions. Let us set a side for a moment the question of recognition of the Communist Party. What we want to know is: what did Mr. Marshall mean when he said that if the Emergency or war. When Mr. Marshall said that did he mean it as an ultimatum? T. What Mr. Marshall said was ... Marshall. Tunku, I said that we have made it clear that we have no intention of recognising the M.C.P. That is absolute... I think that is correct, Tunku? That is not an ultimatum. I do not know what he means by ultimatum, but there is no question of our changing our minds. I take it that is correct Tunku? T. Would you put up a case? I do not follow. C. The question is that before we adjourned this afternoon, Mr. Marshall made it clear that it is definite the Government would not recognise the Party, and Mr. Marshall continued to ask; "Is it necessary to continue"... M. I did not say that. I said that was the position; so far as the three of us are concerned. We have decided not to recognise the Communist Party and if to you it was a "sine qua non." I asked you whether it served any useful purpose to continue. Chin Peng said that this was a primary question - this is a frank question and you have a frank reply. I think if you accept the position we can proceed to any other matters you may wish to raise. If you are not prepared to accept... C. If that is not an ultimatum we can continue to discuss other questions. |
| M.
I do not like to use that word, Chin Peng. The Tunku himself made
it quite clear that there will be no question of recognising the Communist
Party. That is final. If you are prepared to accept that
we can continue the discussion. If you are not prepared to accept it,
the matter is closed. (To Tunku) You accept that? T. Yes. Are you prepared to discuss? C. We are ready to discuss this question late on, and not now. But we are not prepared to accept that principle. M. We have discussed it for three hours and we have not taken a decision. Let us be quite frank - let us not fool ourselves about this. T. would like to hear what you have to say further. C. We would prefer to discuss the question of recognising the Communist Party later. T. As you like, we will continue. You feel you want to discuss some other things first. We would like to hear what is in your mind. M. That is fair enough. C. In that case, we will discuss it later on. T. All right - carry on. C. May I know if the British Government has given full guarantee for independence to Malaya. T. Yes, that is what I said just now:- They have given that assurance to the Council, the Legislative Council. On this point, for which we are struggling in a constitutional way, they have assured us that we will get independence. C. Is that a full assurance? T. If I do not get independence, my party will kick me out... The UMNO General Assembely passed a resolution calling for independence by 31st August, 1957, if possible, and the constitutional commission will examine all the issues connected with the transfer of power. C. Does it imply by the transfer of power the transfer of internal security to the elected Government? T. Yes. That is one of the things which I am going to England to do. That I will get first, before independence. C. You mentioned that if we continue with the armed struggle it will not set back the progress towards independence. In what way does it become a setback? |
| T.
It is no setback as I said to you earlier. There is no setback at all.
But if you continue the Emergency, movement of the people will be restricted
in certain areas, men will be detained in detention camps and there
will be food restrictions in certain areas and it will cause a lot of
trouble to the people. T. But it will not cause any setback to our main aim at all. We will proceed as we have planned we would. The only thing is you will be fighting an elected Government - that is the thing. And as I said before, the people will be moved from one area, resettled in another area, and will lose their homes and the lands which they have cultivated, and things like that and for the sake of the people I wish to end the Emergency. C. We want to find out whetherthere is someone listening in at this meeting, and if that is the case, I wish you to invite them also to attend this meeting and discuss it openly. T. I cannot see anybody else? C. What is the use of those loudspeakers? T. It is for recording ... M. It is quite open. T. They fear there is somebody else a party to this meeting who have come to hear what is said. They are nervous of this thing here. They think there is some other party perhaps who is in this building and that if that is so they should be invited to come in and talk, that is right in this room. But as I say, it is not so. It is only a recording to check the work of those people (the stennographers). NOTE: Chen Tien then leaves the conference room escorted by Mr. D.P. Rees, and inspects the ante-room and then returns. T. Are you satisfied: We are checking up to see where they (the stenographers) go wrong. If they go wrong a check can be made with the tape recorder. Everything we say - you say, Mr. Marshall says, Sir Cheng Lock says, and I say - will be recorded, so that at any time if you want to check what you may have said, thinking in fact that you may not have said it at all, you are welcome to check it. C. I want to beg your pardon, but it seems to me that everywhere the British are listening to me. T. That is for security reasons I represent the people and I want to take back everything that happened here to the people. C. Now, we can come back to the first question about recognition of the Malayan Communist Party I would like you to explain it more completely. |
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T. I don't know what I can add. Malaya is unlike
Indonesia; in Indonesia there has been no trouble between the Communists
and Government, and the Communist are allowed to take part in politics
openly. In fact, the Communists in Indonesia are Indonesians themselves.
On the other hand there are Chinese subjects, subjects of China today
who are communists because they are subjects of Communist China. It is
an interesting thing but when I went to Indonesia recently, I saw flags
being flown by the communists in shop houses. There were also Indonesian
flags; Chinese Nationalist flags they were flown by Chiang Kai Shek's
men; and next door communist flags, they were flown by subjects of Communist
China. But in Indonesia the communists are different. They are different
from the Chinese communists. They are Indonesians belonging to the Indonesian
Communist Party. Whether the Chinese Communists help them financially
or help them in any way at all I do not know. In addition, at a meeting
I attended there were all parties present, communists, nationalists, all
parties. They were all Indonesian people. You know, when they talk they
don't seem to have any identity of interests as between Chinese communists
and Indonesian Communists, they are all Indonesians and they have helped
Indonesia to fight the Dutch and free Indonesian from Dutch rule. They
are, in fact, Indonesians. There has been no clash of any kind between
the Indonesian Nationalist Party and other Indonesian parties. They are
just part of the Indonesian political setup of the day. Now as to recognition,
Indonesia recognises them all. In India, the same thing - there is trouble. Probably, Mr. Marshall can tell you that Mr. Nehru is rather worried about certain activities in India. In this morning's paper, if you would like to read it... M I think they might like to read it. This is in today's paper gentlemen. "Mr. Nehru ticks off Reds. They are clinging to outmoded theories and slogans of the past. The Indian Prime Minister, Mr. Nehru, yesterday made his first attack on Indian Commmunists since the visit of the Soviet leaders, calling them "reactionaires clinging to out-moded theories." He said they had shut their minds and spent all their time and energy learning a few slogans of the past and appeared quite unable to appreciate what was hapening in India today." There is a lot of interesting news following: you might like to read them. T. You can read the news now. C. We heard this over the radio last night. T. That is the position in India. India recognises the Communist Parry and Mr. Nehru seems troubled by its activities. On the other hand in Malaya as you kno yourselves, there has been fighting even since the Federal elections. An attempt has been made by your coming here to try to end this trouble, but to ask us to recognise you as a party so that you can disperse throughout the country to organise your communist activities, naturally you must understand that the people of this country would not accept that. Some of the people have lost their husbands, some have lost their sons; and those, are the backbone of my Party - therefore, to ask me to recognise the Communist Party or Mr. Marshall or Sir Cheng Lock for that matter, would not be fair and we cannot do it. I would like to be quite frank. I say, if you like to come out and you want to take your place in society, you are welcome to do so, but you must not take part in any Communistic activities - as explained just now. |
| What may happen
in the future I cannot say. That is for the people to say. After you
have shown your worth, after you have shown your loyalty to Malaya in
the same way as the Indonesian communists have shown, the things may
change. But that is for the future. But now I am speaking for the people
of today. C. You have mentioned about the Indonesian parties and also of the loyalty of the Communist Party in Malaya. Do you mean that it is because most of the members of the Communist Party in Malaya are Chinese .... T. Yes... M. No not all of them. May I answer about Singapore. Never, that has nothing to do with it. It is because you have exercised violence against the people of Singapore and against the Government of Singapore - we have an elected Government - that we say that your activities are traitorous and on behalf of the people of Singapore, 76% of whom are Chinese, I strongly resent the suggestion that because you have a large Chinese element, that is why we consider your ideology or your activities traitorous. That has nothing to do with it. C. I would like to give an opinion. T. I might say is is true in some respects. For instance, the Malays feel rather that the communist owe allegiance to China because as you yourselves said, there are more that 90% Chinese in your Party. Out of that 90% how many would be eligible for Federal citizenship, how many would want to be Federal citizens? How many Malays are in your party: how many Indians are in your party, how many Eurasians? How many who make up your party are in your party to enable you to call yourself the Nationalist Party of this country? It is for that reason the Malays -1 feel very strongly on this myself - think that you identify yourselves with China. C. Allow we to ask: if we organise our party in such a way, that we only allowed Federal Citizens or those who are happy to become Federal citizens to join the Communist Party ...? T. That may be later on. But you have got to prove your loyalty to the country first. But what will happen thereafter I cannot say. It may happen afterwards, but for the moment I say NO. I want to be quite frank with you. I don't want to mislead you. I must tell you the truth because the purpose of this meeting is to make this clear - we want to bring peace and an end to this trouble. We want you to know exactly what your position will be so that you can then make up your mind to accept the terms or not. There is no point in misleading you by saying, 'you do this, or you do that' and then we keep someething down in our hearts. We don't intend to do that, that is not our way of doing things. I want to be frank with you. You have got to decide for yourselves. C. Suppose we assent to your suggestion, i.e. no recognition of the Malayan Communist Party and we come out from the jungle, what will be our position. Could you explain it more completely? |
| T.
Yes, the intention is this. The intention is that you will be held for
investigation. As in many cases in war, when peace is declared and one
side gives in, the other side must examine those who give in first, must
investigate them, and it is necessary to detain them for a certain period
in order to carry out this investigation. Again we must remember that
in Malaya there is a slight difference. It is not a case of two countries
at war, then there may not be detailed investigation, but in this case,
in Malaya, there must be, because you are going to live here. Therefore,
it is necessary to carry out an investigation in order to ascertain whtether
you are going to continue your activities or whether you are going to stop
all these activities, which we consider at the moment as anti-Malayan. That
is the true position. M. I think I would like to add to that for myself that if you or any of your colleagues can appreciate independence under a democratic system the welfare of the people, and you are prepared to come in wholeheartedly, Singapore would welcome you. C. But we do not want to be welcomed like prisoners by being detained in prison. T. You will not be detained in prison. There will be special camps for you where you can be lodged in order to enable us to check on you. You will not be detained like other people where a trial will be held in order to pass judgment on you. It will only be an investigation to find out whether you are going to be loyal to this country or whether you are going to carry out subversive activities or other activities in order to enforce your ideology. In the past you have shown that you have this ideology, and because it is not accepted, you enforce it by violence. In some cases innocent people have been dragged out, slaughtered and killed. All those acts of brutality and hatred, we do not want; we do not like them. We do not want it done that way. Assuming that you come out and become members of the public, you might feel there were people against whom you wanted to take revenge; you might go into his house and slaughter him in cold blood. With all these possibilities, if I were to allow them to happen, I would be denounced by the people as an irresponsible public leader for having allowed that sort of thing to happen in order to bring about peace. "What sort of peace"? they would ask. Peace one way but trouble the other way. Therefore, it is necessary to find out first. C. We also want to point out frankly that we do not want to fight the people, but if we come out and it is necessary to hold investigations and detention is necessary, then we must ask what will be the length of detention. T. I will tell you this much about detention. The length of detention will only be for as long as is necessary to carry out the investigation. It will not be detention under the Emergency Regulations where people are detained indefinitely but we will have to hold you somewhere. The investigation will probably be carried out very speedily. The position of those detained today is different - they are detained under the Emergency Regulations. But when there is no more trouble, when the Emergency ends, they will not be held under those Regulations any more. Your detention will be different, we will take you to a special place, get committees of enquiry to go there straightaway, to deal with the matter and make the investigations. We want to extract a promise from you that you will not carry on your activities, which we say are not loyal to Malaya and are prejudicial to the interests of Malaya and Malayans. We will want you to sign a declaration to that effect. We will also want to know what you want to do when you come back to society. |
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M. May I add one word? Those who are released will be assisted
to settle in society and every opportunity will be given to them. At the
present moment they are aware that any person who wants to return to China
may do so and should any of those persons who surrender want to go to
China, every facility will be given to them. I myself, give my personal
undertaking that they will be treated in a manner compatible with the dignity
of human beings and afforded every facility and assistance, if they so
wish. T. I want-to add this too - that under the terms of the Amnesty those who surrender will be helped to rehabilitate themselves in society. The general public could say that although these people fight the Government, yet Government helps them until they get jobs, Government pays them, while we who have asked for assistance because we have helped to fight the Communists, we are not compensated in any way. Why should Government help the Communists? My answer is that because these people have been living in the jungle, they have had no chance to get themselves acquainted with the conditions in the country, therefore, it is not fair to expect them as soon as they come out, to be able to obtain employment. The other thing is that perhaps people will not like to employ them. Nobody will employ them because they think of them as mischief-makers. An employer may think that if he employs this man there will be mischief, there will be trouble within his organisation, within his company or within his business and for that reason the Government considers it is necessary to help them, to allow these people to find regular employment, professions, and to try to get them settled in business and that sort of thing. We have got a place for these people at Kemendore. We put them there, help them, give them land, give them seeds, cattle and in the case of Chinese, pigs, chickens and so on to rear. Quite a number are very happy indeed. They have made a home for themselves there, and in most cases they have refused to leave the place. That is good. Something like that would be valuable to the Communists, that is to those who surrender. But do not think that what I mean by detention is that as soon as they surrender we will put them inside and forget about them. That is not human. My other worry is that the people detained in detention camps today under the Emergency Regulations have got to give up their Communist ideologies too, because they are in a way actively connected with your movement. C. I think that the question of assistance is of secondary importance. The most important question is this question of restriction of freedom. That is a question of principle. T. There will not be much restriction. There will be no restriction of movement except for the first few months when you may have to report where you are. C. I want to speak frankly on this point, I cannot accept it. T. You must realise our position, our predicament, we cannot allow you to go free just like that. It would be all very well if nothing untoward were to heppen, but we have got to protect ourselves and make sure that nothing does happen. On the other hand, if it does happen despite what we propose to do, it cannot be helped, but nobody can accuse us of having been careless and of not having taken proper precautions. In your personal case perhaps it is all right, but can you vouch for the others? |
| C. For the dignity of maan, if this principle is insisted upon then we can only carry on with the struggle. T. It is up to you. As I said there would be restriction on movement for a certain period of time, but not after you have shown yourselves to be like the others, then restriction of movement will be removed. You will be free to go wherever you like. But we have got to take precautions just to be sure. C. We do not want to boast about ourselves, but although we are comparatively weak in strength, we are quite confident we can carry on the struggle, even for a long period. T. It is up to you. M. But Mr. Chan Tian, forgive me asking but what are you struggling for? C. It is very simple - just for the dignity of man. M. Yes, but..... C. You cannot get success in the battlefield and you cannot force us to give up. M. Of course not. But you see, you are speaking of the dignity of man. Surely it is not compatible with the dignity of man that you should use deeds of violence to enforce your views on the population that does not want them - that is the crux of it. You speak of this struggle, but you yourselves appreciate that it results only in misery. You yourselves speak of peace, you claim loyalty to this country. Where is the dignity of man? You are making yourselves suffer indignities and miseries in the jungle with its disease and its lack of a lot of the essentials of human life. You recognise that you are also making the rest of the population suffer indignity. Where is the real dignity of man? There must be sacrifices for the dignity of man. And we are asking you to sacrifice for the dignity of man and for the welfare of Malaya as a whole. C. Since our outlook on this queation is quite different, we are not prepared to argue on this question but we just express what we feel on this question. M. What question? C. About the dignity of man. M. But surely the dignity of man is a common thing we all understand. Would you consider it compatible with the dignity of man if you were to come out and we were to give you immediate passage overseas? C Not every one of us, as I said before, will go abroad. That means to say that we would admit that the Communist party in Malaya is liquidated. But it is not. The Communist Party will never be liquidated. |
| M.
No. But you must admit that with you methods of achieving your aims,
you have not got the result that you desire, you have got only misery
for all. So the methods have been proved wrong. C. I am not prepared to argue on this question. But since you continue to mention it, I have to point out frankly that we know our struggle has produced certain effects. For example, the British now have to make certain concessions to the people of Malaya. M. You really believe that? C. It is not, of course, our struggle which has been the only cause for these concessions. M. You really believe that your struggle contributed to these concessions? C Yes. M. Do you? Well, I would like to put it to you this way. You say that you have the welfare of Malaya at heart - or do you? I say, if you have the welfare of Malaya at heart, what are you prepared to sacrifice for the welfare of Malaya? C. First of all, fight for the independence of Malaya. M. I say: What are your prepared to sacrifice to bring peace to Malaya? C. Sacrifices should be made by all sides, not one side. M. Well, I am asking you for your side. C. This we can discuss. If we were to come out, we will be detained. That is unrealistic, of course we are not prepared to surrender to this Government. While we are in the jungle, we are free. Why should we come out to be detained? M. I have known the Tunku for some time, and I think you have shown by coming here a certain confidence in us. There is genuine goodwill between the two Governments. There is a desire to bring an end to this struggle. The question of detention is rather a question of investigation. Those who are prepared to forego completely their communist activities can come into the main stream. The others will be given the opportunity to go overseas. It is a question of having faith in our goodwill. C. We understand the goodwill of both the Government, that is why we have come here. We understand that an explanation of the amnesty terms implies certain revision of these terms and because of this we came out this morning. It that is not the case, then our understanding is wrong. In other words, you do not want us to come out at all. T. It is up to you to tell me where you want the terms amended. That is why I said it is up to you - for you to say. You have asked for my explanation and I have explained the position. If you think any particular part of it is wrong, it is for you to say. |
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C. We asked for clarification of one point
- that is already finalised - the restriction of freedom after we come
out. Another question is recognition of the Communist Party. In our
opinion, it is a waste of time to continue the discussion insisting on
the terms as are now laid down in that direction. I am not trying to talk
tough, but I am just explaining what I think. I hope that you will not take
offence. T. No, no, I am here to listen to what you have to say and am prepared for you to talk frankly in just the same way that I would like to talk to you frankly. C. Under the present political situation, we feel that it is possible for us to achieve independence by constitutional means, and it is for this reason that we are ready to stop the war on reasonable terms, but not on terms you lay down here. T. What is your reason for refusing these terms? C. There is no other way for us to choose - therefore we have to continue the struggle. What for instance do you think are reasonable terms? C. No restriction of movement. T. No restriction of movement - that means you say: "I accept peace". As soon as you say that and I say I agree, then everybody comes out, they do what they like - that is, all come out how they like, where they like and go where they like. C. Of course there is in addition the people who wish to go back to China. M. How many of them are there? C. We do not know now. M. Because in respect of that I would be ready to call it quits, to say we do not wish to have them here if they do not want to remain here. We will be glad to assist them to go. C. The second point - if the Communist Party is not recognised now, members of the Communist Party should be allowed to take part in political activities. M. You mean that if they are free, they can join "X" Political Party of "Y" Political Party, any existing Political Party? C. Not necessarily. For the present, there are many people organising new parties - perhaps we could organise a new party. M. What you really mean is: those who are free can join any political party other that a Communist Party? T. No, he means if they are not recognised, if the Communist Party is not recognised and they come out, they are free to organise their own political party. M. Free to organise what? |
T. To organise a new political party. They don't say a Communist one. C. Not necessarily a Communist Party but maybe another sort of party. M. Look, you are a frank man. You just told us so. You know the people will not recpgnise the Communist Party so you propose to call it the People's Party and have the same principles. Is that talking frankly? C. I think I am also very frank, if I tell you that in future our members will join, say, the Labour Front. M. That is a help (Laughter). It is an accepted fact as far as Singapore is concerned that you are free to join any political party. That is clear. But I would also like to make it clear that there can be no question of the Communist Party forming a political party under another name calling it whatever you like. Certainly you have shown your ability, and when you are free, I hope you will take part, take part actively, in politics for the welfare of the people in a democratic way. As far as Singapore is concerned, we welcome that. C. At the present moment, I think this is a compromise on our part, because we cannot advance in any other way to carry on our activities since the Malayan Communist Party is not recognised. M. Are you saying frankly that you want to carry on Communist political activities under the camouflage of another name? C. If is not a camouflage. It is just like - (you just take an example) - we want to wear an overcoat, but we are not allowed to do so; so we have to wear a singlet. M. May I say I appreciate your frankness. M. Those are your two points: have you any others? One was no restriction of movement. C. No detention, no investigation. M. The other is freedom to join or form any political party, freedom to join any political party. C. May I say, freedom to join or form a political party. M. It seems Chin Peng understands English very well. The first point is unrealistic. I do not think there will be much difficulty about the second. But I do ask you to reconsider that first point realistically. Basically the true facts must take into account your position vis-a-vis the people, and however proud you may be of you r record, do try to seem it from the eyes of the people, the large mass of people who have suffered. In the light of that, may I suggest that you consider that tonight and resume our discussion tomorrow, because (Tunku, I don't know how you feel on the first point) as far as I can see ... to me it is completely out. |
| C.
Excuse me, you say that the first point is unrealistic. The second
point? T. The second point follows on what I said earlier. Once you are free to join society, you are free and can form whatever party ... M. You can join the P.A.P. if you like (Laughter). T. Yes. C. I think it is more important for you to consider your reply. T. I can reply now. As I have said, as far as restriction of movement is concerned we must have it. The other one, once you are free you are free to do what you like. M. You have the full rights of a citizen then - I mean the second point naturally follows. If you want to you could form an agricultural Party or whatever you like under the law, if your objects are lawful, and as far as most of your manifesto is concerned, except for the second last paragraph your objects seen to be perfectly in order. T. Do you want to see us further tomorrow, because tonight Dato Cheng Lock is not very well. He is rather tired; we are tired too; we want to rest. If you want tosee us tomorrow, we will be here. You want to see us? You want to see Mr. Marshall, Dato Cheng Lock? We will all meet tomorrow at 10 a.m. M. I would plead with you to try and consider that question soberly. There must be some sacrifice on your part on this question. You are already sacrificing today if I may point out. You are going through a lot of difficulties which in the normal course a human being does not suffer. When you speak of the dignity of man... (?) Just a moment please. M. So would you consider the point again realistically?. We are prepared to be reasonable, but that is, as you put it, ‘unacceptable to use' T. I think we are going to adjourn now. Dato Sir Cheng Lock Tan is tired out. We will come back tomorrow. (Meeting adjourns to 29.12.55) Second session Introduction (Book review) Go to the top |
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