History
The Baling talks
Session 2
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History
The Baling talks Session 2 |
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SECOND DAY Tunku. Shall we continue? Dato would you like to say something? Dato Tan Cheng Lock. As the M.C.P. consists mostly of Chinese, it is the Chinese community who have suffered most in the last eight years of the Emergency and therefore as Chinese we particularly wish that there will be peace and an end to this war. We hope at this meeting to put forward propositions which will end the Emergency. There is no hope of the M.C.P. winning. Why waste money unnecessarily on the Emergency, there is no point in that. The vast majority of the people of this country are not in favour of the communists because they are not working for a prosperous Malaya and communism sets class against class and causes disorder. The other reason is that communism is distasteful because it causes violence. What we want in this country is peaceful co-operation and coexistence for us all and this can be obtained if you will come out of the jungle and become peaceful citizens and be loyal to this country. We want this Emergency to end so that there will be peace in Malaya. Communism is like a disease sucking out the blood of Malaya and will cause the ruin of the country. T. I read with interest the manifesto of the Communist Party which was delivered to me through Mr.Too Joon Hing and I find that it is quite good. That is what everybody is aiming at today - peaceful government and administration of this country. Dato. On the basis of that manifesto there is no quarrel between the M.C.P. and the people, the continuance of the Emergency is a sheer waste. T. You mention in the manifesto fundamental freedoms - freedom of speech, freedom of movement, human rights. We have accepted that too and we are carrying all that out. As to the Malay language being the national language of the Federation, we are carrying out that too and we are also glad that other nationalities are being encouraged to study the language. As regards the opening up of land that is being done. Government is permitting the opening up of virgin land to enable people to cultivate it. All these things are being done. I read through the manifesto and I can't see very much difference between theirs and ours. |
| Now talking about the Amnesty, what have you to say? Chin Peng. May I have two points cleared? One is about "loyalty to Malaya". May I know the actual meaning of "loyalty to Malaya"? T. Well, one of the things the Malayan people expect is that while you live in Malaya you must give up your communist activities - activities such as are being carried out today. The Chief Minister, Singapore, regards all the subversive activities in Singapore as very detrimental to Malaya, such as the strikes and so on that are taking place in Singapore. When strikes are legal we allow that, but strikes for something that is illegal that is different. Strikes are being carried out today by people who declare them for no other reason except out of sheer spite. There is another matter which is accepted by the communists:- that they don't like bosses. One cannot help being born into a class, one cannot help being born rich, one cannot help being born lucky in business and making money, but I admit that people born rich or who have made money in business, should have part of their money distributed for the welfare of the country. We are doing this by income tax and other taxation and all the taxation realised is used for the building of schools, etc. This system is better than that advocated by the Communists. They may not like the institution of Rulers in a government, but to us they do no harm. They are decorations of the country and they do help to keep steady the different elements in their States. The majority of the population in this country are Malays and they have no difficulty in recognising the Rulers as the Heads of their religion in their States. The Alliance is prepared to uphold the prestige of the Rulers as Heads of their States. They will become constitutional Rulers in that they will be more like figure heads. Their position will be such that they will not get mixed up in politics or in the administration. They will be debarred from direct administration or control over political matters, for which the Government with its elected members is responsible. Let me say that in the manifesto which I read just now, it says nothing about the Rulers. The Rulers of Malaya are not rich; they have not amassed wealth like the Indian Rajas. They are paid just enough allowance to live and maintain their dignity. Nevertheless to Malays, they are very important. They are the guardians of our religion, they are guardians of our customs and adat: they are a constant reminder as to how we should behave. Therefore, one of the ingredients of loyalty is that we should uphold the dignity of the Rulers. Dato. If a man wants to live in Malaya he should assume that responsibilities and duties of a good citizen. Marshall. It seems to me that this is a rather sterile discussion. We are really here to find out to what extent we can achieve an end to the violence which they themselves admit has led to misery for the people. The people want peace and prosperity for the whole of Malaya. As to the question of loyalty, as I understand it, loyalty is respect for the people's welfare, respect for the individual personality, harmony and harmonious relations between the races and effort to achieve the common good by constitutional means, loyalty to the Government of the day and loyalty to the |
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processes in bringing about such changes which we sincerely believe are
for the welfare of the people. Not hatred or violence, they are not part
of democracy. Absolute dedication to the welfare of the country not seeking
to make it a province of another foreign idealogy, but absolute dedication
to this country itself and to the people. Having said that, may I suggest that we discuss in detail the Amnesty terms themselves. They have started off by saying, that they did not want to discuss ideology, nor is it my intention to discuss ideology. I am discussing merely the methods by which they seek to achieve their ideology and am trying to point out that their methods can only bring about misery. I am glad to see that they admit it. So let us get away from ideology and consider the actual position. We believe, the Singapore Government believes and join wholeheartedly with Tunku Abdul Rahman in believing that the Amnesty terms are honourable. They give an opportunity to the dedicated nationalists to come back to the main stream of healthy public life and to assist us in promoting a great nation. Malaya has a tremendous international status if we can keep racial harmony and democratic processes. Now within that context and in the light of term 5, just what is it the Amnesty seeks? Firstly, put down their bullets and firearms and come back and seek harmonious relations, away from hatred. C: I still wish to clear certain points. May I know whether the giving up of communist activities means the dissolution of the M.C.P.? T: Yes, more or less. Giving up communist activities means they have to dissolve the Communist Party. C On the Government side, may I know whether there are any constructive suggestions? T. I have no other suggestion except to say that they come out and take their place in society. M. I agree with that. I have defended a lot of Communists and I recognise their courage, their sincerity and their dedication. But what I abhor is that this courage, this strength of human energy which they have, should be utilised for the evil ends of hatred and violence, creating disorder, chaos, bitterness, misery. I say, we are on the threshold of nationhood and I join the Tunku wholeheartedly in saying that I sincerely believe that we are on the point of achieving independence. We need all decent men who are true Malayans to put their shoulders to the wheel of our common aim for a far more glorious future that we can ever conceive, because this is not only a rich territory, it is in a magnificent position to join East and West - and they can do their share as human beings n this process. Their activities have indeed been a setback to our economic development. Let us have an end to this. You say you are right. Very well, I think you are wrong. But the point is, you must see that today your way is definitely wrong, you are out of step and you are merely delaying the progress of the people. Put down your arms, hand them in and accept these terms. |
| Now I would again
stress that you are wrong as far as Singapore is concerned. Communism has
been associated so strongly with brutality, with violence with hatred, that
it is anathema and we cannot recognise the Communist Party as such, but
if in the days to come, as part of the people, you seek to form your party
at some future date - whether you call it Communist or otherwise - that
will be for the Government of the day to consider. But let me say now for
the people of Singapore and in respect of the Government of Singapore, we
will not recognise the Communist Party at present, because it has been far
too long associated with the activities that all humanity abhors. M. Now, what have you got to say? C. Mr. Marshall, if I make too hasty a statement, I hope you will pardon me. M. Please, I have been indulging in them myself. Go right ahead. C. The Singapore Government is a popularly elected Government. If the Singapore Government will follow the wishes of the electorate, if the Government of Singapore has control over internal security problems, if the Singapore Government has absolute power, then the question of recognising the M.C.P. is not of importance at all, because that question will be decided by the electorate. On the point of recognition of the M.C.P. I believe that not all the electorate, not the majority of the electorate are on the side of Government. (Translator explains about translation difficulties) M. You can answer him that in a democracy, the people speak through Government, and he has had his answer. I don't know where he gets his belief from. C. I think there is the Australian example. M. I don't understand. C. Yes, because in Australia it has been a question whether or not Communism or the Communist Party is lawful and that problem has been brought up in Australia. In their elections there has been a question of recognition or otherwise of the Communist Party in Australia. T. That may be so. The point is that between the Australian Government and the Communist Party there has been no fighting, but in this country you will see that the Communists are fighting the elected Government. We are still fighting and how can you ask us to recognise the Communist Party. C. Actually speaking, in the past the Government with whom we fought, against whom we fought, was not an elected Government. M. This year, it is. |
| T. That is why
we have offered them Amnesty. You will perhaps remember that it was a year
back when Dato Cheng Lock Tan himself said, in backing me up in the movement
to bring about peace in this country, that we were quite prepared to go into
the jungle. You see it seems to me that fighting the Communists today in
this country plainly requires a lot of money, but that is a matter which
involves the Commonwealth very much because we need money to fight this war.
Money has come from the Commonwealth countries and from all our other resources.
It is our desire that we don't want any more trouble in this country. C: . I fully realise this point. D: Why not stop fighting? C. The point is this, as a member of the M.C.P. we still believe in our ideology. We will never allow ourselves to be forced by others to give up this ideology, but wish to put our ideology to the people to decide, if that is possible. Now the Government request us to give up this ideology. As a citizen, of course, we have obligations, but at the same time we must have freedom of thought, the right of freedom of thought, but the Government's point is that they don't want this. T. The point is, we have declared in the Alliance manifesto that we uphold with all the power that is in us - that everybody should have freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of action, freedom of social relations and one other freedom - that is the 5 freedoms. We give that undertaking freely. They say they want the people to decide whether or not to accept their ideology or accept ours. Now, speaking for myself, I have no doubt whatsoever that if they be allowed to take part in free elections, the people would choose our system. D. Yes, I know that too. I agree. T. Therefore I say that perhaps their ideology and ours are not quite the same. The people like our way of life - the Malayan way of life that is theirs, and although, in the future the trend of thought may change to the left - their way of life and their ideology, it certainly will not at the moment and they must be prepared to accept this position and give in to the way of life accepted by the majority. There are quite a number of Communists in Malaya today rubbing shoulders with me but they do not know the meaning of Communism. However, they do know the genuine desire of the people to have our present form of Government which is the most suitable for them. Many members of the Council express themselves in very strong terms -communistic terms. You probably heard about the debates and words used in the Singapore Legislative Council. To the ordinary man in the street this indicated that they are communists. You probably heard the same Communist terms used by the Chief Minister... (Interpreter: Mr. Marshall?) Yes, Mr. Marshall. But they are not Communists. It would be very difficult to find out whether they are Communists or not, but their ideology is not communistic. That is what I feel is the state of affairs that exists today. |
| C.
Of course, we realise that during the last year political progress has
been made in Malaya and we have all heard the election speeches made by
the Chief Ministers of Singapore and the Federation during their electioneering
campaign, I personally heard the speech made by Mr. Marshall over Radio
Malaya. That was rather strong. I believe if such a speech had been made
a few years ago I am sure he would have been charged with sedition. But
because of the progress that has been made in the political field recently,
we believe that the time has come when we should co-operate with you to achieve
our aim, and to end the Emergency. T: That is why we are very keen to have their cooperation to obtain an end to the Emergency. C . We came here with sincerity in the hope that we can solve our problem, this problem. I have made it quite clear just now that we cannot accept the Amnesty conditions as they are now, because these conditions require us to dissolve the Communist Party. On this issue I want to request the Ministers of both countries to tell us whether or not there is any further grounds for discussion. T. No. If you are returning to the question of whether we are prepared to recognise the Communist Party - No. I don't think we will. Have you any other points? If you would like to have time to think, we can adjourn for half an hour or one hour. M. If they want time, they can have it. C. The question which I brought out just now is the primary question, the most important question. M. Is it suggested that if the Communist Party is not recognised, they intend to continue to subject the peoples of both territories to this hatred and violence which can bring no good to anybody? C. It is a difficult question. We do not mean to say that if the Communist Party is not recognised the Emergency will be carried on, - that we are to blame. M. What does he mean? What else does it mean? C: The statement presents some difficulty. Did you mean just now that if the Communist Party is not recognised and the Emergency is to be carried on with the resultant sufferings to the people, that we are to blame? M. It is a simple question. Just because the Party will not be recognised, you are proposing to subject the two Governments of the territories and the people of the two territories to continued miseries through violence and hatred, violence and hatred which you yourselves admit can produce no worth while results. Is Communism so tied up with violence and hatred that it must be continued even when it becomes injurious to Communism? We cannot believe it. You have seen 8 years of struggle - what has happened to you - misery for yourselves as well as for the people, misery for your own colleagues and your friends. I have seen them. They believed and they suffered - for what? What have they achieved? |
| C.
Now I reiterate once more that if the Emergency is to be continued the
blame should not be thrown only on one party or on one side. Of course we
realise that war brings misery and sufferings. The question is: With what
means can we end the Emergency or war? T: ........ .Give up. Prove yourself loyal to this country ...... absorb yourself into society like everybody else. That is the only way. C. But does that mean that we should swear to the Government that are going to give up our ideology? T. No, not ideology - it is their activities which I mentioned. One's ideology is what one thinks, what one believes in. Activities are different. Especially activities to enforce the acceptance of one's ideology. C. Does that mean then that if we are prepared not to achieve our aims by violent means or by force, then we will be recognised? T. No, When you come out and you surrender, your ideology and your beliefs are your own business. C. This is a simple question, let us be frank. We can adopt a certain measure, a certain method. For example, we will preserve our Communist Party, but will join forces with the Alliance -1 mean join the Alliance. Then will not the Alliance blame us for over-throwing the Government through subversive activities? I mean if we do it that way, we are not frank, we are not sincere. Another way is that we are Communists. We do not wish to join other political parties and then to do our scheming or intrigues. That is why we want this question of the recognition of the M.C.P. to be solved. T. As I said earlier, in this country the trend of modern thought would not accept the recognition of the Communist Party. Of course, when I say "we" I am referring to my Party. But what is going to happen later on I don't know - that is not my business. The Country will not accept Communism because communist activities have been associated with murder, with atrocities, with acts of violence of every kind. That is why, therefore, we cannot recognise it. C. The question of recognising or otherwise of the Communist Party perhaps is not to be decided by the Alliance alone - we wish you to clarify this matter. We want to know, we wish you to clarify whether or not the Alliance is the final authority for saying whether the Communist Party will be recognised or not. T. At the moment, the Alliance is the Government of the country, - this was not so before. I said this just now. I did indirectly refer to the people this question of recognition and the way I did it was to ask the people to say whether they accepted the Amnesty terms which I issued or whether they did not accept them. If they did accept them they were to hold demonstrations everywhere, if they did not then no demonstrations were to be held. |
| The results were
that they held demonstrations which, perhaps in the history of Malaya, have
been unparalleled. In Kulim, where I was once District Officer they have
even gone further. Instead of parading in the streets like other places,
they made placards and so on, and they marched right into the jungle and
came across two communist camps. They went out unarmed and plastered slogans
all over the camps. In the camps there were provisions and other things. They
took nothing away. They only recovered one wrist watch which they took away
as a souvenir just to prove that they had gone into a communist camp. If
they want the wrist watch back, that can be got back for them. Therefore,
I don't speak for myself at all. I have no hatred, no bitterness against
any party or against anybody. But my responsibility and my duty is to the
people who elected me into power. That is all. I have worked hard since I
was appointed President of the UMNO to join together all the nationalities
of the country and have formed the Alliance. Before the Alliance, before
the Chinese and the Malays came together, you probably know that four villages
in Kedah were burnt down by Malays and a few Chinese slaughtered because a
Communist there had killed a Malay, with the result that they took revenge
on innocent people. It is true. That happened in Kulim ....... in Kedah
near Gua Chempadak. It happened just before the Alliance was formed, and now
because of the work that I have carried out, there has been no incident of
that kind at all. And that is why I say many things can be done peacefully
if only one is sincere. I fell certain that the Alliance is growing strong
and I believe very strongly that one should always be at peace with one's
neighbour (M. Hear, hear). And because of that conviction the first thing
I did when I took over the leadership of UMNO was to bring the Chinese and
the Malays together, bring the Indians and Malays and Chinese together more
and more. And now I want to bring peace to all the people of Malaya. There
is room in this country - there is wealth, there is riches, there is everything,
there is no reason at all why we should be fighting, why we should be killing
one another, why we should destroy all the good things of life. That is my
ideology. That is all I have got to say. Shall we postpone for one hour? We are all tired. M. It seems to me, Mr. Chin Peng that we have spoken frankly. T. Mr. Reese, we break off for about half an hour. M. Could we have another 5 minutes Tunku? Maybe we can have the answer now to a primary question. It is important to you. As you say, you are a Communist, there is no reason why we should force you to change your line. But is has been made clear to you that the Government of the Federation and of Singapore are not prepared to recognise the Communist Party. Now, is there any purpose in continuing these discussions. It is a fair question. Please reply with frankness. C. May I make one more point clear. The matters discussed in this house - are such matters to be approved by the British Government. T. If I decide, and Mr. Marshall agrees with me, that will be all. M. The British Government, of course, may disagree with the course of action, but as far as we are concerned, we take our own decisions. T. Shall we adjourn for half an hour. (Adjourn till 6.30 p.m.) First session Introduction (Book review) Go to the top |
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